The Great "God Bless You" Debate

Atheists are fascinating to me. I want to say many great things about them, but I also do not want to make them out to be monolithic. They really are not. There is a wonderful variety to them.
I will say that the tendency of taking the moniker “atheist” and advertising with it does make some certain similarities in the resulting group. This includes a few things that are positive: They recognize the Godlessness in the world (and hence why they are so accurate in the field of economics, which is the most godless); they teach how to make a fruitfulness come from breaking your own heart, recognizing sorrowful truths; and they are both very supportive of those who agree with them and very honest and direct in their criticism.
I now transcribe an argument with little editing for readability as an account of how the title event occurred. I hope to use this for further study. This occurred in a place called “Atheist Community of Discord” which is associated with the Atheist Community headquartered in Austin, Texas, not far from me, which runs three call-in shows every weekend that I have been trying to call into just about since I began this Substack.
Thus begins the transcription:
Context:
(Under the name “Poor Fellow”, I first posted in the general chat asking if a person would help me individually by arguing against a formulation I had for the existence of God. I was advised to make a forum post. I then did so, entitled “Testing an Amateur Argument About God”. I have made much progress with this argument by the way. I hope to record something soon in relation to it. I will not publish it here unless you want me to, for fear of length.)
(The first response ended:) So in short, there’s a lot of assumptions being made here that to me don’t make logical sense. Also just to say, one can also believe in gods or a god without assuming that they are all powerful or created anything or that souls exist so even believing in a god doesn’t entail all of these things.
(My response:) This would be a different definition of God than the one I am highlighting here. I am happy to define it for you.
(Another response:) Well, I also have a rebuttal to Part One. Specifically: detailed descriptions of beliefs exist for thousands of Christian denominations and other religions. What makes Catholicism’s special?
(My response:) It contains all of them, which is a different argument I’m happy to have.
(Another response:) When I was a polytheist, a good deal of other Norse pagans, and I all had this what we called “unverified personal gnosis” of Thor being associated with velcro and lesbians. And it was a pretty common connection we all seemed to share. Does that mean Thor is real?
(My response:) It’s evidence to that effect, yes. I believe Thor is real.
(This suffices for examples of the type of feedback I got.)
The Offense
(A Moderator named Leaf:) Poor Fellow, Lana just raised a similar objection to what I did. Can you please respond to me, or at least to her? Or do you acknowledge that your argument fails? Maybe I missed that.
(Me:) It’s an interesting argument, and I cannot answer it at this time or in this place! It’s too much for me! God bless you. (This was given two reactions: a heart from Lana and a questioning raised eyebrow from Leaf.)
If there is no other way to escape the argument than by saying it has failed, then I am content to do so! I have learned a lot and gained much fruit! I intend to take it to other mediums and practice it. Thank you! Enjoy your victory!
(Lola, who mentioned Thor above:) I don’t think this was about winning against you. I still would like to understand your argument more clearly so hopefully you find the gumption to return.
(Leaf:) I’m asking you if you agree that it’s flawed or not. Can you answer that for the sake of my curiosity? Please? (With an image of a puppy:)

(Many further complaints followed about my attempt to leave the argument, all of which I respond to shortly and politely.)

The Second Offense
(Lola:) I think you are projecting your own expectations onto us. No one here holds an expectation of time by which you must reply. I am happy to extend a discussion over months or even years. I’m awaiting responses now of two theists on here of questions I had for them. I consider the argument neither done or won, simply suspended. I’m not sure why you’re putting this imaginary constraint on yourself.
(Me:) You’d have to understand a number of other things about my life, but I would rather you simply accept it without an explanation. It is not about time constraints.
(Lola:) Okay, best of luck to you then.
(Me:) God bless!
(Someone here says a long and polite response including:) But I can understand it might feel like the thread is getting away from you when the discussion continues without you available to react directly.
(Lola, in reply to “God bless!”:) All due respect, my dude, but saying this in an atheist forum comes across as a bit snarky or a bit fake. You know people here don’t believe what you believe. Even when I was a theist I wouldn’t cross a line to do things where I thought it might make people feel weird about it. I’d suggest if you plan on engaging further in atheist communities, maybe learn a bit more considerate discernment.
If you want people to engage with you in (pun intended) good faith, that’s not a way to get to it.

My Apology
I understand what you are saying and your feelings are very valid. This is one area where I consider it appropriate to maintain my normal speech and writing patterns even if it offends because of the effects outside of us two participants in the conversation. Namely, I genuinely believe that an Entity responding to the name God will bless you, which is to give you happiness, if I request it of Him. Now, especially since it is easy to get angry, and this leads to cursing, I find it a very helpful reminder to me in order to moderate my own anger, which I have in abundance. The word goodbye signifies the same thing, since like adios and other colloquialisms it comes from the old English, God be with you. But like I said, that reminder is helpful to me, and it is not in goodbye. I regulate my behavior in other ways, but this is a legitimate habit that is done in good will which I find indispensably helpful, probably in a similar way as other people find it helpful to make some note of their pronouns before beginning a conversation. It reminds me that I have a God to answer to for not only how I have treated you in this current conversation, but how I think of you henceforth, and I do not have the easy expedient of leaving a person out of my life and mind in the way the internet tempts people to do.
Uproar
(Lola:) That’s a whole long-winded way of saying, “I care more about my own comfort than your feelings or boundaries.” And if that’s something you’re compelled to do by religion, that’s even more of a reason for me not to believe. And even more evidence for me that religion will lead people to do things that are not great, even if they are an otherwise morally decent person.
(Leaf:) Lola did not curse when they asked you to be a bit more considerate. I will. Don’t — say God bless you to me. Do not involve me in your religious rituals without my consent. This is not just offensive, it’s abusive and toxic and harmful. This is not the equivalent of respecting someone else’s pronouns, it’s actually more similar to misgendering someone. I respect your right to believe in your god, and I would gladly break bread with a believer in friendship or in organizing towards common goals, but if you try to force your god’s blessing on me then I will emphatically tell you to shove it —.
(Lola:) I appreciated that a lot. I do feel like it’s similar to misgendering, but I didn’t know if it was right to make the comparison. Thanks.
(Another:) … it hits the same vein as “I’ll sacrifice a goat in your honor”…

Third Offense
Well, I am content to be punished or removed from this server on this point. God bless you all.
(Bystander:) There’s no punishing or kicking. It’s just feedback…
(Lola:) And if you don’t care about the effect your gestures have, they are not well intended anymore.
(Leaf:) Do you think it’s acceptable, even by Christian morality, to force your religion on others like that?
(Me:) Yes, like that. Advisable.

More Outrage
(Belligerent 1 sends a picture of a middle finger:) No thanks.
(Belligerent 2:) Spiderman bless!
(Leaf:) Can you justify that biblically?
(Belligerent 1:) Last I checked the Bible condemns that kind of behavior.
(Leaf and Belligerent 1 then offer different Biblical verses including “Do unto others…” and “Do not pray on street corners…”. Belligerent 3 mentions “Kick dust off your feet”.)

My Second Apology
(Me:) Sure, I can justify it biblically. I almost did, to be honest. I was very tempted to post the Biblical excerpt to make myself feel better. I restrained myself because I remembered that your paradigm is not convinced that way, nor does it see any authority in Biblical quotes. It seems wise to me to learn your paradigm rather than assume it. I see you are assuming mine as a form of attacking my position, which I think for various reasons you only vaguely understand. There’s nothing wrong with that! There’s no reason to respect a religious viewpoint from what I can see of your understanding of it.

Fourth Offense
(Belligerent 3:) The point is to convince us you’re not a hypocrite.
(Me:) That’s not the point of my being here. I have higher priorities. Convincing you of anything is possibly much too difficult a task for someone like me. God bless you for caring to look into my hypocrisy!
(Belligerent 1:) Nobody wants your God’s “blessings”. The people here who aren’t Christians think your God is a monster. And frankly, that’s the way your holy book reads, too. That’s like getting a blessing from Adolf Hitler. Would you want that? No? Apply the same logic to me and your God’s blessings.
(Belligerent 3:) If convincing me of something is that hard, it’s probably because it’s not true. So you’re just admitting to being a hypocrite.

The Debate
(Leaf:) I asked if you could justify it in Christian morality and then explicitly with the Bible… it’s appropriate to give the Bible verses… I’m not attacking you…. stop retreating… address the question….
You can keep saying God bless you, and all you are doing is hardening people’s hearts here and making it less likely we will ever accept Jesus. (Also making people less likely to take you seriously at all.) You aren’t going to be modded for it. I’m not going to feed your persecution complex.
Please answer me: Can you justify saying God bless biblically? So far we have two biblical reasons not to say it.
(Me:) I can, yes!

A Fifth Offence
I see the language here has turned very aggressive and abusive. I do not want to encourage that by engaging with you all in the way you have demanded of me. I am sure you can find what you need from your own perusal of the Bible. I am giving you as much of my attention as seems both meek and prudent. God bless you all.
(Various people complain about this and claim that my conversants were civil. One long answer from Lola contained this:) You have been abusive, full stop. Just because your language is flowery and nice doesn’t make what you have done here any less abusive and insidious…. Multiple people have expressed to you very clearly that your “God bless you” is not welcome…. You have repeatedly ignored this boundary…. You can hide behind polite language all you want…. You’re rude, entitled, and hurtful. You started it. Don’t obfuscate your responsibility by tone policing.

The Debate Attempts to Start Again
(Me:) I am sorry, the cursing, middle finger, aggressive derailment, and mockery is such uncivil behavior from my perspective that I can only interpret demands for particular modes of response to be psychologically manipulative and very destructive behavior which I do not wish to encourage or affirm…. I am content to suffer the abuse, but I will not answer unless there is more of an attempt to understand and communicate with me civilly, before additional demands are made.
(Lola:) Nah, I started being kind with you. You started with the “God bless you.” You’re not civil when you disregard people’s boundaries.
(Belligerent 1:) “Abuse”. You’re the one advocating for the abusive god of the abusive religion, and trying to give us its blessings.
(There are many back and forths and demands for me to stop my behavior, which I repeated twice more.)
(Leaf:) I didn’t give you the middle finger… This is like my fourth time civilly seeking to understand you…. You came to an atheist serve and refuse to teach about the Bible to one atheist because another gave you a middle finger?…
(A long back and forth ensues. I enter into a discussion about cursing and manipulation with a man interested in language theory.)

A Deal Is Struck
(Leaf:) I swore earlier. I will agree not to swear at you moving forward if you no longer say “God bless you” to anyone that hasn’t given you permission. Can you please answer my question about the Bible?
(Me:) I am concerned that it will cause you to mock or misuse the Bible. I personally don’t consider it a strong basis for argumentation. It is not a theological or ethical treatise no matter what people say about it.
(Leaf:) Making assumptions is — of you. You don’t know me. It’s also pretty lame that I asked you the question like five times before you answered it. Why didn’t you answer the first time? Is it because you didn’t expect to be held accountable for your claim? Are you a Christian?"
(Me:) I continue to have every reason to think that you are not being genuine… which causes me to decline following your direct instructions to argue using a particular set of evidence that I would not choose myself. I am Roman Catholic.
(Leaf:) I’ve been asking for three days now…. Instead of suspecting I’m going to mock or misuse your answer and judging me on that, test me and then judge me based on what I actually do.

The Debate Continues
(Me:) You make a strong case! …. I don’t really think you can justify specific behavior with the Bible. It’s not how it’s meant to be used…. You can justify nearly any behavior with the Bible…. I’ve not done any rituals here. The Mass has rituals, the Sacraments have rituals, I do not recall the phrase “God bless you” being used in those.
(Me providing the Bible verse:) Luke 6:28a: “Bless them that curse you.” I read a lot but that seems to be the most direct.
(The debate then ensued about whether they had cursed me. Some said that I was cursed after saying it, so it does not apply. This article has gone on fairly long. I will say that it ended with the below exchange.)

The Final Offense
(Lola:) Well, you haven’t, again, said “God bless you” so I can only hope you have learned from it…. Hopefully you understand it more now.
(Me:) I do! God bless you for helping me understand it.

Epilogue
I was banned after that last line. I sent a message to Leaf saying that it would appear a little dishonest if he did not inform everyone that I was banned, because it would look like I left this engagement voluntarily, rather than continuing as I had up until that point. He told me to use their robot to respond. I repeated it through the robot. I was told to read the rules of the community and agree to abide by them. I said I would pray about it and consider whether it was virtuous to do so.
As I look at this section in which I am unable to respond, I see that Leaf gave twelve separate rebuttals and responses to me, one of which includes the phrase “I’m asking what you mean that.”, which I cannot answer.
What do you all think?

I also solicit your feedback for cutting anything out of this transcript. I am going to publish it elsewhere next week. You all have longer attention spans.

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